Exploring Love and Justice in Jon Guerra's 'Citizens'

Joshua Noel: 00:00:40

Hey, guys. Welcome to some Joyful Noises.

This is an Onaz island podcast, experimental music podcast, dumping ground thing, where some of the leaders from our network and really whoever just jump on when we want to talk about music, host an episode, and we just kind of do it. This is a music podcast with no rhyme, rhythm, or reason whatsoever. We're just staying noisy. Literally anybody can host the show.

There's no schedule for the show. We just kind of do stuff when we. When we feel like it.

And if you guys feel like it and you message us, hey, can I do an episode about Jesus loves all the little children? I'm really, really. Yeah, sure, man. We'll see. Let's see how that goes.

Will Rose: 00:01:23

Camp songs, favorite camp songs. That'd be fun.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:25

Yeah, yeah, you know, whatever. I'm. I'm thinking about doing a pirate song one soon, actually. Literally. Literally. No. No rhyme or rhythm. We just do stuff.

And today, the stuff we're doing. I am Joshua Null, one of the.

The people leading the conversation for the day here with my pastor, Will Rose, reviewing the song Citizens by John Guerra, which I forgot to make sure I'm saying his name right. It's fine. This can be. Honestly, it's gonna be less of a review. We're not the most knowledgeable people about John Guerra.

I don't even know how to say his name. You know, I'm not a music expert or anything like that. Just to be transparent.

Really, what this was is like, every now and then, I don't listen to a lot of Christian music.

I used to because that's all I was allowed to, which is why I don't listen to as much now, because I'm allowed to listen to things that aren't Christian music. But every now and then, one will stand out that hits me, and usually it sticks with me for like, a few weeks. And I'm like, man, yeah.

That really got to me and made me feel some kind of way. And it was useful. This one's been a lot longer than a few weeks now. It's been months. And every now and then.

And it's funny because even after I told you, because this hasn't happened to me till after I told I will was like, yeah, we could do this episode together.

There's been a few times where I'm like, on the car on the way home, and I just have the song on loop for a straight 45 minutes and I'm just crying in my car and. Yeah, that's where I'm at with this.

Will Rose: 00:02:52

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:53

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:02:53

There's A vibe. That's a vibe shift.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:55

Yeah, this is. This is how we're getting into this one, guys.

Will Rose: 00:02:58

Make noise or joyful noises.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:02

Wailing, weeping, gnashing of tea, lamenting tears. You know, I don't remember. What's funny is I don't remember the reference, but this used to be one of my favorite Bible verses, where it's. It's in.

I think it's one of the minor prophets. It's one of the prophets. It's the. Those who sow in tears will reap. Enjoy. Yeah, I don't. I don't remember where that's at.

Will Rose: 00:03:22

Namus. Could be.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:23

Could be. Whatever it is, that's what we're doing today. We're going to be sewing in tears, hoping that one day we will reap with our noises. Yeah.

This song, for those who don't know, it's very much a prophetic song. If you're sensitive and you want it to be woke, it's woke.

If you're sensitive and want it to be conservative garbage, it could be based on some of the lyrics in the chorus. You could be like, oh, this is a literal reading of.

Or, hey, man, this is a song coming from someone's heart who wants to believe Christianity, and sometimes Christians in America make it hard. So I think this is more of like a prophetic word lament of the current state of Christianity in America, something I resonate with.

So it won't be very knowledgeable. There are podcasts out there. The way I heard the song was from Russell Moore. He has a podcast episode with John Guerra.

So if you want a podcast that's like gonna give you the deets and really explain the song and have all information, maybe go there. That's not what this is gonna be.

Will Rose: 00:04:22

That. To figure out how they pronounce his name, you can listen.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:25

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:04:25

Just for. Just for. Like to see how I think he pronounces his own name. And then you can come back here and hear us butcher it and then talk about it.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:34

Yeah.

Well, then what you do, you rate and review our show on GoodPods, Podchaser, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify, and you leave a comment and say, hey, you guys didn't even pronounce the name. Right. Right. Just put that in the comment. Why not?

Will Rose: 00:04:46

And you'll hear us say, go to the other podcast if you want that.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:48

Yeah, yeah. And if you.

If you want to keep getting our episodes for some reason and you don't want to miss any, well, there's not a schedule, so you have to subscribe Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever, to know when episodes drop. Because we don't even know when episodes are going to drop, man. It's on you.

Will Rose: 00:05:04

Mystery is Lauren.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:05

I love it. All right, so we're going to jump into this episode, Will. You know, usually we do some like, like, banter thing, like, what are you listening to?

Or whatever. I just feel like there's so much to talk about here, and it's really not even about the music.

It just happens to be that these lyrics were delivered in a song.

Will Rose: 00:05:22

Well, just real fast like that.

You know, we talk like why music is important is one of the questions that we ask on this particular podcast is that there are sometimes words and feelings can only be expressed in kind of a theopoetic way of kind of music and song. And so it's poetry. And so if you do interpret this song from one angle, that's your interpretation, just like a poem.

And you could go to the source and say, what did you mean by this? The author of this song, or I imagine most artists, was like, what did it say to you? How did it speak to you?

What did it stir up in your soul and your heart, in your mind? And I think that's what this song has done and is doing with Joshua.

And when he introduced it to me and I listened to it, it's definitely a prophetic word. And there's, you know, there's a reason people like musicals and Disney movies. They wear.

All of a sudden they just bust out in song because there's something going on in the story that makes them just express themselves in a way that can only be expressed in music. Song, joyful noises, lament, theopoetic way of expression out in the world.

And we're creative creatures that sometimes use that outlet and expression so that we can, you know, feel human or articulate how. What's moving within us and how we're feeling in the world. And sometimes it makes us laugh, sometimes it brings us joy, sometimes it brings tears.

And that's all biblical because there's a whole book called Lamentations where they're shaking their fist at God, asking why and crying and lamenting. And so, yeah, this. This song captures all that.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:55

Yeah. Yeah. Well, also, we're getting to the meaning of this show. We also say a lot on here that music switch forms community.

A few episodes I've pointed to, like, Kingdom Hearts Fan Base is like a really good example of that because so much of it is about the music for the fans of that franchise. I think there are a lot of Christians And I'm just, I'm speculating here. So mind you, a lot of this episode will be speculating. For me.

There's probably a lot of Christians that this song would be community forming in the sense that there are a lot of people who feel like you grew up Christian. There's a lot of that story that you still cling to. You still like that Jesus guy.

Maybe you still love a lot of the stuff of the faith, but then you see what's happening in the church and in America and all this stuff and you're like, I don't know if I still want to be associated with it, but man, I still love Christianity. And you want some hope to cling to. I think this song is for the community of believers that find himself kind of in that area.

Will Rose: 00:07:53

Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love Jesus, but sometimes his followers make me eye roll or get me upset or the institution built around this figure of Jesus sometimes can be very disappointing. And I don't want to have anything to do with it.

But the actual man himself, that first century Palestinian rabbi that was executed by the state, and why was he executed?

Well, let's dive deep into his life and figure and then the people that follow him or create the structure around him, sometimes those systems needs to fall and be questioned. So there you go.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:30

Yeah, well, and that's also part of why I'm glad my pastor is on here with me, because there's sometimes I'm going to lean on you to help me explain things and sometimes I get emotional with this and it's going to be helpful to have somebody else kind of lead parts.

So we mentioned, you mentioned especially the song has kind of a prophetic word, kind of a, kind of relates to like apocalyptic literature in the Bible. Some of like the epistles, maybe even lamentations.

You want to just explain a little bit like how is that function similar to some of the things we see in those type of literature in the Bible?

Will Rose: 00:09:05

Well, I think when we talk about prophecy, prophetic word, it's not necessarily being a fortune teller or telling of the future.

It's holding up a mirror to your present context and asking you to question what's going on, what's the reality around us and how is God speaking in it? You're asking the question, question, where is God in all this? What is my place in all this?

And so that prophetic word really holds up a mirror to society and says, take a deep, deep look and ask those questions. Who am I and who is God and how are we, you know, if you get to say Kingdom Hearts, I get to say entangled.

How are we entangled with one another in our community and how we do? How do we live as humans together in the world?

And then apocalyptic literature, yeah, there's metaphor and image imagery to really get to the kind of sci fi imagery of the world, but really prophetic literature that Greek word apocalypse literally means to reveal or unveil.

And so this song and the, the literature and the scripture verses that, that are apocalyptic, they're unveiling for you a deeper reality that's underneath the surface or right there in front of you.

So this song can be apocalyptic because it's unveiling a reality around us and speaking to that truth or speaking to a reality that we either res with or, or question. And then, yeah, I mean, I think Paul in, in the epistles or whoever's writing a letter there, they're speaking to the context.

They're, they're challenging, they're being pastoral, but they're also being apocalyptic in terms of like unveiling for them a present reality that they need to wake up to, to understand. If you want to be woke about it, let's, let's get woke. Let's wake up. Wake up to your friend. This very Advent, very the season of Advent.

Hey guys, don't sleep. Wake up. There's something going on in your midst that you need to pay attention to.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:56

Yeah, yeah, I, well, I'm going to be lame and point everybody to episode of the Whole Church podcast where me, you, Ryan, do Leah Robinson and TJ Blackwell talk about apocalyptic literature and sci fi, horror, a bunch of stuff like that. And we have fun over there. So if you guys want to understand a little bit more on our take on apocalyptic literature, it's there.

I also want to say, like, as far as. We'll get into this later too, but how you. I don't know how to word this.

Well, the theopraxy of your eschatology is going to be important here, so how you apply your theology and specifically with the end time stuff. So this song makes me think of two different things at once that I feel like is important to unpack before we get into it.

One is the song and I'm probably one. I'm going to get flack from the left on this side, but I still love some Casting crowns. I still like them. I know that lead singer.

I've heard some of the stuff that he said and wrote and I'm like, man, I don't agree with his theology at all. And I Think he's a good person. It happens. You know, it happens. And they have a song that I also think is kind of prophetic.

And it was at a time when woke. Wasn't that, like, big buzzword? So they were able to do this, and Christians liked it.

And now we do the same song, and people probably really mad their song of if we are the body. And that's what this song reminds me of a little bit of, like, if we are the body, why aren't his hands healing? Why aren't his feet moving?

Why aren't his lips speaking truth, helping people? That's what that whole song was about. It's like, why isn't the church doing something about what's happening in the world?

And that's what this song is about. But now we're in a context where if you ask why we're not helping people, you're woke.

But back then, when that song came out, that's what conservatives wanted to say. So you got to see that context of like, wait a minute, how have we gone so far in such a little period of time?

And I think casting crowds would probably still sing that song. I think they would, and I think they still stand by that message. But I think a lot of their followers probably wouldn't.

Probably why they don't still write new songs like that. Anyway, I'll leave that alone for a minute. The eschatology, the apraxi stuff that I was talking about.

A lot of times people build their eschatology, their view of the end times, to kind of comfort them or to make it easier to believe their faith. I think where it's, one day I'll go to heaven if I do the right thing, say the magic catchphrase that I believe in Jesus, you know, whatever.

And that's where my grandparents are, so I don't have to grieve them because they're up in heaven. Whether that's literally true or not, I honestly don't care. Maybe that makes me a bad Christian, I don't know. But I'm like, I just don't.

To me, that's not the point. So I'm like, okay, cool, maybe.

But the problem is, if that's the limit of your theopraxy is just knowing that thing so it comforts you, then some of the song might not make sense. But if you expand it a little bit to wait a minute, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is now. So it's both now and not yet.

Then you hear parts of the song where it talks about building A city.

And if you're doing this thing and you're not just thinking, oh, one day Jesus will give this to us and we'll be faced with it, you're realizing, oh wait a minute, we're supposed to be building that city right now on earth. And that's going to kind of give this chorus a dual meaning where you're like, wait a minute, Jesus is doing that in the future.

If you subscribe to that kind of ontology. I don't know if I do. I don't think I do. But I do hold to that other part of we're supposed to be building the kingdom of heaven right now.

So he's also singing to us going, hey, if you're building that city, are you looking at the immigrants, calling them children? What are you doing? I think it makes it a little bit more challenging if you understand your theopraxy a little bit differently maybe.

Will Rose: 00:14:35

Yeah, we say Christ is the alpha and omega, but what do you do in between? You know, beginning and the end. But we're here in the now. So the Christ who was, who is and will be, there's a balance when it comes to that.

For only looking to the will be. And we're just, you know, pie in the sky at some point in the future or we're dwelling on the past.

We're not, we're not looking to see how we live in the moment, in the present and who's, who's our neighbor now?

And I think that's part of the parables that Jesus was doing, his theopoetic story expression of parables really stretching people and asking people, yeah, who is your neighbor? And it's like, oh man, I don't like the answer to that. But hey, is that person not the one who, who acted with mercy?

Can't even, the, the lawyer couldn't even, couldn't even say the name, couldn't even say Samaritan, that they had to just say what the action they did instead. So how do you look at your neighbor in the face and your eyes and, and say, yep, they're, they're. They're a child of God.

And if that's woke or if that's too liberal or if that's challenging how. I think, yeah, we'll get into it. But I think there's a sed. Reduction of power and privilege. And I. We gotta be. There's a means to an end.

We gotta get, we gotta hold on to this power or, or get co opted by this system or structure or particular person because of Whatever. And. And we'll do better later. Once we're getting into power, then. Then we'll. We'll do good. We got to get there first. Like, no. What about right now?

The person who's hungry right now. The person who needs to belong right now.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:02

Yeah. Which is also. Maybe it's fair time now to warn everybody. I will almost definitely be going on one of my I hate utilitarian rants.

Will Rose: 00:16:11

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:11

That whole we just justify bad action because we think the outcomes worth it. It's just.

Will Rose: 00:16:16

Nope.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:16

It's dumb and arrogant. It's mostly arrogant. Is why I have such a problem with it. You don't know the outcome ever. Anyway. Okay.

What we're gonna be doing for this song, it's gonna be a little bit weird for everybody, probably, especially maybe including me and Will. We're going to be sharing the verses of the song. I have four different versions of it. We're going to be flipping back and forth to play from.

But when we get to the chorus, the chorus changes each time. I think there's four different times. The first couple lines are different each time, and then the main part is the same.

So when we get to the chorus, instead of listening to it and playing a clip, Will and I have a liturgical setup on our outline where I'm going to read a part, he's going to read a part. And when it gets to the main part of the course, that is the same each time, we want you guys to read it with us.

So if you need to listen to this song beforehand, pull up the lyrics, whatever you got to do, I think it's going to be worth it because I think it's important that we work together to just affirm the message here that the church gives a damn, that Jesus gives a damn. And this song isn't explicit. It doesn't say give a damn. That's me. That's me. Like, I passionately, like, I care about this.

And I'm looking at what the church is doing, and I'm like, man, sometimes it just feels pretty clear that we don't give a damn. So the part that is the same each time that we will be reading together and asking our listeners to kind of stay with us.

We don't know that you're doing it. We're just going to trust that you're affirming this with us. And it starts with, I need to know there is justice.

So it's, I need to know there is justice, that it will roll in abundance, that you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants, you call us citizens and you welcome us as children home. That part will all read together the parts before it that change each time Will and I will kind of alternate on.

It's going to be a little bit different. We're going to talk about the chorus at the end and kind of unpack what that means to us. But for now I can only talk a little bit about the.

I'm calling it the pre course. The part of the course that changes each time. I want to talk about that now. So in this part, the artist states he talks about some of his feelings.

So this is I want to talk about. He says he feels confused, he feels used, he feels angry and he feels guilty. Will, how. How do we resonate with this stuff now?

Will Rose: 00:18:46

Yeah, what I tell my congregation all the time is that you can feel multiple things at the same time.

You don't have to be either or so like if you're, you know, a loved one died and you're feeling grateful for them and also missing them and feeling deep grief and sorrow, you can feel both at the same time and not feel guilty and this, you know, confused. Use angry, guilty. All those can kind of hang out together in the same room and they can have a conversation.

Now when one speaks up over the other or talks over the other person or the other feeling then, then yeah, how do you work a health conversation? But all those are real emotions that we can all feel at the same time. Now add another one. Like there's fear.

You know, what are we scared of and what's going to happen next. Like I resonate with all those. But then another thing that I resonate with is legit fear. Like what's going.

When I see things how unfold on the news or how particular brands of Christianity are acting out in the world or representing Christ. I'm fearful of the future or what's going to happen to those I really care about. But yeah, confused. What are they saying? You know, used.

How are you co opting my faith? I'm angry. I'm not going to let you do that.

And then guilty that, you know, perhaps I feel those same ways or I've acted those ways in the past that I want to repent of.

Had particular views that when 20 or year old will or seminary will said things out loud because he thought he was right on things and didn't care about the person right in front of him. It was more is more important to win an argument than see the humanity in the person across from me. I feel guilty about Those, too.

So, yeah, all those can hang out in the same room together.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:18

Yeah. Yeah. I. Part of this is really. And it's funny because I've tried to get us to record this at specific times. Several different occasions.

You know, the Trump administration deported this guy. The Trump administration did this.

I'm like, right, well, now's a really poignant time to record this, and I think maybe it's just always a poignant time to talk about this song every day.

Will Rose: 00:20:38

Every day.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:40

The week we're recording this, I just discovered a church that I used to help occasionally that I've spoken out against before. It's now called Legacy Church, was once College Park. It's in Greenville, South Carolina. Please avoid it. I'm not going to use names.

I'll name the church because I think that as an organization, it's just not safe for people. And I think it's important to warn people to not go places that aren't safe.

Will Rose: 00:21:02

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:04

I knew once they had a youth worker who was involved with a girl underage. It appears that something similar has happened recently. Youth worker who is married and just had a kid and has been involved over a year.

Seems like they've been trying to keep it quiet, and now they're trying to open up.

And part of me thinks that the way they're wording it and coming out, they're trying to get ahead of the message and not let out that it's a lot worse than it even sounds. And I've known that pastor for a huge chunk of my life, who's part of that church, who's leading them, and has now hired two people like this.

There's a lot of stuff that I'm kind of like, putting my crime junkie hat on, and I'm like, oh, math ain't math. And this doesn't make sense. You know, I'm like.

But then I'm like, you know, even more so the people who are hurt, not not only the victims, I. I also. I know the person who is guilty of some of the abuse.

And that guy, I'm not gonna say he's a good guy, but, like, they are naming him on their Facebook, on all their social media platforms. They just had a baby. Him, his whole family, their lives are ruined. And yes, it is partially his fault.

But even when we cast the shadow ourselves, I don't. I don't know, man. It's just. The whole thing is just heartbreaking for me.

Seeing the church cover the sub, seeing this pastor who's told me before, he's like, you know, it's all about the spirit. The Bible's important, but as long as you're connected to the spirit, he's gonna let you know what to do.

And I'm like, man, the spirit isn't telling you to cover this up. The spirit isn't telling you to keep hiring people like this to let this go on in the church. Like.

And I think about it, and I'm like, these are the people who told me to live by Christian values, who always want to talk about, you know, sexual ethics and stuff. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm a little confused. I'm a little angry. Yeah, I'm a little sad. And, you know, I helped that church.

I voted for the same people they did for a long time. So, yeah, I'm a little guilty.

And the thing that to me that this song challenges me with, and I almost always start to tear up when it gets to coming to you because I'm guilty. It's because I'm right there with him the whole time he's going through this song, and he's clearly talking about Donald Trump.

And I'm like, yeah, I'm so mad. Christians are backing this guy, and he's talking about how they're not care for the immigrants. I'm like, yeah, I'm so mad about that.

Then he's like, come to you because I'm guilty. And I'm like, oh, that's right. When I was in college, I made a spectacle that I would not recycle.

There are points in my life that I made sure people knew that I was gonna vote against Democrats no matter what.

Will Rose: 00:23:25

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:25

Like, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm still coming to you because I'm guilty, too.

Will Rose: 00:23:30

Well, a big part of the liturgy in our particular tradition, is confession and forgiveness at the very beginning of the service. And so there's not only being angry and prophetic.

Word of, you know, oh, that person over there, that group over there, that system over there is wrong. But it's also looking in the mirror yourself and saying, you know, I'm guilty. I'm not perfect. I make mistakes.

I've backed things that I shouldn't have. I've said things I shouldn't have.

I still feel things about other people that I shouldn't feel or is dehumanizing towards them as much as it is they are dehumanizing others.

So there's a reason we start our worship with confession and forgiveness, to be honest with ourselves, be honest with one another, and most importantly, honest with God. And That a repentant heart, part of that guilt. You turn it and confess it and you stand in solidarity.

Not your neighbor, but those around you who are feeling the same things. Who's experiencing those same things.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:30

Yeah, this is weird. The TV series. And I hope we're going to do a systematic ecology episode about it soon. The Good Place actually helps me a lot with some of this.

Will Rose: 00:24:39

Absolutely.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:40

Because I am the guy who's like, wait a minute, I bought this soda. This company owns it. This guy did this. I supported him inadvertently.

Which also is why the Bible has stuff in like the Old Testament of like, sacrifices for the sins you didn't know you commit because, like, God cares too.

Will Rose: 00:24:56

None and unknown. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:57

Yeah. It's just. It is challenging.

And even for myself, like, I think back in some of these people that are involved, I'm like, I remember telling them, hey, you need to repent. I don't know why, but the spirit's telling me something's wrong here.

But I also remember telling them, hey, man, I'll fight for you till death if I need to because I love you. And thing is, and maybe this will get me canceled. Even the predators, the victims, all of them. I love every person involved here so deep.

And what I keep thinking of is that's God at all of us, you know, like, he sees the terrible things I do and he's like, he's hurting and he sees the people that I've hurt and he hurts with them too. And that's confusing. It's confusing with your. You actually resonate with both sides. You're like, man, I just want everyone to be.

You know, there's a. I went to Ortcon not too long ago. And they talk about the difference of repetitive. That's not the right word. Insert word here in restorative justice. You know what I'm trying to say?

Retributive. That's not right.

Will Rose: 00:26:01

That's close.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:02

Yeah, something like that in restorative justice. And I think I agree with both things, but I think God cares a little bit more about restorative justice.

And that's why I still hurt for even the people who are the abusers, where I'm like, man, well, retribution you hope.

Will Rose: 00:26:18

Retribution you would hope would lead to restore but not always does sometimes just punishment to punishment or revenge, those things. But what is it going to bring to a person to come to terms with what they've done within themselves and then also restore the.

Around them who they've hurt? And so that's. That's a long process. That's not just like, oh, I forgive them, God forgives them. Move on. You know, there's.

There's a reason why people are putting time out. There's a reason why people are. Are you walk with people. We're also in a process of becoming right. Some of our friends say.

Edward Khan will say, and so how do you. Even the restorative justice has a process of. Of hopefully you're leading to that way. Not that the just. Just, you know, the means just by the ends.

But there is.

There are ways in terms of ha and practices, including listening to songs and reading scripture, that hopefully will change your heart and lead you to restorative justice.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:12

I'll be annoying and set up a debate that will and I can have some other time. It's why I really loved Captain America, Brave New World and didn't care for Thunderbolts this year.

Brave New World, the bad guy takes accountability for what he did wrong and subjects himself to retribution. Retributive means so that one day he can be restored. Whereas in Thunderbolts, we're gonna skip the accountability part, the retribution.

We're just gonna straight go to restorative. I still like restorative. I just. I don't know. Feels like a piece is missing. I don't like it.

Will Rose: 00:27:47

But thunderbolts, they ended with a hug. And that's so much better. So much better. So much better.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:52

So anyway, this song was written sometimes. Let's get to part. So also in this part of the chorus that changes each time, he does some other stuff, but then just talk about feelings.

He talks about why he's coming to God in prayer. So here's some of the reasons. I want to see if you can.

If we affirm this in prayer, if we're like, maybe I'll tweak that a little bit, how we feel about it.

He says he's coming to God in prayer to move in our country for the mothers who are afraid, for their families, for the hungry in our streets, for the immigrants who are looking for homes. And ultimately, because God promised to leave the flock for the One will do we. We affirm all of that. Do we want to tweak any of it?

Will Rose: 00:28:31

No, no, that's on point. You know, of course, the mothers, the hungry, the immigrant looking for a home. But God promised to lead the 99 for the 1.

I mean, yeah, most of the time I'm the 99. And so how do I feel about going off to find the One?

And I think what's going on in American politics, American Christianity, Evangelical Christianity, who have co opted and kind of sold out for. For Don of. They, they're seduced by power and privilege. I think they, they don't care about the one.

They're like, I just want to be a part of the 99 and I'd want to make sure that we keep that one out. And that's just so opposed and the opposite of what Jesus represented, which is so frustrating and so confusing.

It makes me so angry when you can't see. But I, I get. I was there too at some point in my life. But yeah, what about that one? What about that one?

Joshua Noel: 00:29:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I affirm all that. There's probably some stuff that I would, I would add.

I also, again, the thing is like, are we praying to God to do something or praying with. To God, acknowledging that we are the body, that what we're asking God to do is what we should be doing?

I think the main thing I would add is probably a reference to the queer community. You know, I Even online, maybe with a bot, maybe with someone who doesn't understand English.

Well, I'm not sure we had this conversation about transgender stuff, right? And they always have their points where like, the Bible says he made them men and women.

And I'm like, well, what about all the people born with multiple sexual organs from different genders and usually get one or two things like, well, that's the result of sin. To which my answer is, okay, so people are born transgender for the same reason. Then what's the problem?

Will Rose: 00:30:17

The Bible doesn't mention giraffes, but yet we believe they exist. They're part of creation. It doesn't even mention the silent on giraffes.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:24

Or, well, yeah, they say like, all crap, but. Or they'll be like, oh, well, that's such a minor thing. You're just pulling that out to win a point. To which.

And I said this, in this thing, the people who are born with sexual organs from both genders, percentage wise worldwide, there's just as many people born that way as there are people born with red hair.

So if you are not willing to commit to the theological statement that you don't have to care about redheads, then you can accept that if you're not willing to say that God doesn't care about redheads, you can't say the other. Which makes all the transgender arguments also kind of invalid.

Because just because they're not outwardly showing the gender identity struggles doesn't mean that they're not real.

Will Rose: 00:31:06

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:06

And I think that happens all across the board, where Christians just want to come up with some reason to argue and to attack these people. And it's not just Christians, but because of the Christians in our country, I think this has become not only a minority, but attacked a minority.

So when I come to God in prayer, I'm also, hey, these people, whether they're Christian or not, the queer community, who is so scared, what are we doing for them? How is God preparing for them, loving them? How are we as the body loving them in our country?

Will Rose: 00:31:34

Yeah, good question. We're going to sit with that a while. The church have been sitting with that a long time. Even though. So, you know, when, when perfume was spilt on.

On Jesus and they were like, we could use that money for this or that. You know, they're arguing about how to use money and fund about what's going on. You know. But the Jesus math, you know, let's do some Jesus math.

The last be first, the first be last. The 99 or the 1. What's more important?

You know, I think look at how Jesus did math and that might be a little countercultural or against the grain of, of what we're chasing after in this world.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:08

World. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so then, moving on. Last thing before we get to the actual song.

This song was written in: 2020

I didn't hear it in: 2020

Will Rose: 00:32:33

No, I think it's still. Yeah, the words speak truth now. You know, they.

You think about 20, about those same elevated questions of how do we take care of our neighbor and love our neighbor, whether we're wearing a mask or supporting people with, you know, searching after vaccines or people really scared that they are.

Their church is going to lose power and privilege because they can't meet or together in person or they see they buy into conspiracy theories rather than listening to really smart scientists around them who are trying to help them and work these things out. But we, yeah, we're four years, four years of Trump, you know, first term. Now we have Trump 2.0 where it's amped up another. Another level.

I think these speak, these questions of how to be the church, how do we love our neighbor, how are we the church, how are we the body of Christ in the world is. Are still relevant. And every generation has its challenges.

And it seems like Every political season we have our challenges, but man, there, there's a day. I mean, I think the ramped up rhetoric and othering and kind of the reality. Okay, okay, yeah, I'm going to go on a limb here.

The, a reality TV show star becomes president, they know what gets clicks and what gets reactions. And it's been ramped up another level. It's because they're. They're playing a game. They're playing a game with our emotions and know how.

How to do that with us.

And so there's a reason reality TV show, in terms of, you know, eliciting responses out of us that now we have a president and a world leader who knows how to play with those. And so just as relevant now.

But yeah, no one is in: 2020

Joshua Noel: 00:34:21

Yeah, yeah, the, the juxtaposition of how Donald Trump plays on these emotions is really telling. And for the record, obviously during is not running for president or anything, I'm just sitting here going, yeah.

Trump saw that we were scared, confused, angry, and he played that up to people to get them to an action to do something. And this song is kind of doing the same thing. It's getting us to do an action. The action is to give a crap about people, to give a damn. Right.

Whereas Trump was to let's attack our enemies. This call is playing on that same emotions to say, let's love and care for the marginalized. What's that?

Will Rose: 00:34:59

The one. The one.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:01

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it's big.

nk about politics till really: 2015

we saw what happened. And in: 2020

And that was like another breaking point for a lot of people where they were like, I don't know if the church is supporting this. This is what they're okay with, the masks, you know, not wanting to wear a mask, willing to get people sick. People are dying around us.

My own family members dying because they fall for this whole like, oh, yeah, the government's doing this and to be in church, we shouldn't have to wear a mask. And all this stuff. And I'm like, well, now you're dead. You know, not playing that down, but it's like.

Will Rose: 00:35:49

And it's interesting here we're doing it.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:52

Again, but now it's with Alligator, Alcatraz. Now we're at like a comic book villain level where we're like, huh, I've always said.

Will Rose: 00:35:58

I've always said Batman, Billy Bob. What is the breaking point?

And it's interesting to me that some of the MAGA folks are really starting to speak out against Trump because of the Epstein files. And that's the breaking point. I'm like, man, there's so many beforehand question. But this is the one thing and I'm not disappointed in that.

I'm glad that's finally like, wait a minute. Yeah, there's some smoke here around this fire.

And you mentioned the disappointment of this particular church and community that you are part of, where there's some similarities there in terms of predatory nature and taking advantage of the least fortunate and those underage. Well, there's an. There's another whole side thing. So that's what's. As we're recording this.

That's the news, the headline, the breaking point, that there's some people on MAGA and evangelical Christianity. There's like, wait a minute, you said this. We feel betrayed. I'm like, yeah, we've been saying this a long time with other things. So, yeah, well.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:51

And that's the temptation, right? Like, right now we can say, oh, we told you. How did you not see it before this and get upset at them.

Or I could go back to this song and realize, you know what I bet they're going through right now? I bet they're realizing the person who told them he was going to out all of the stuff and be transparent isn't being transparent.

They're probably a little confused about that, right? They probably feel like he, he used them. Maybe just like I felt like the church used me.

Once I started seeing what was going on, what the church was supporting, like, maybe they don't believe this stuff. And I was confused and I felt like they were using me.

And I'm like, man, I mean, I have to realize a lot of people are feeling that thing about their politics right now, seeing their. The God that they turn to. You know, they started worshiping Trump and now they're seeing, yeah, they're feeling the same feelings.

And I don't know how to honor that, but one way might be to actually get through this hunk. But I'm gonna play verse one of the Song I am using four different videos to play different verses from this.

So I think verse one is just the regular recording with lyrics on the screen.

And we're gonna play verse one, we're gonna talk about it, and then afterwards we'll get into some of that liturgical stuff that we mentioned earlier in the pod. Yeah, yeah. All right, let's see if I can do this. Well, probably not, but we're gonna try.

"Citizens," by Jon Guerra: 00:38:18

I have a heart full of questions Quieting all my suggestions what is the meaning of Christian in this American life? I'm feeling awfully foolish Spending my life on a message I look around and I wait Wonder ever if I heard it right Coming to you My mouth.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:41

Kept, like, circling around the exit window yeah, so that's verse one. Coming in strong. Coming in strong.

You know, at first I was iffy because for some reason, when I hear even, like, Christians I respect, especially if they're like more educational people, you know, scholarly people, they're like, oh, yeah, this music guy. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna like this.

And then I started the song, I was like, I got through verse one and had to restart the first time I listened because I was like, oh, this is going to be actually meaningful, you know. What about you? I feel like you listened to him a little bit more recently. How did verse one first hit you?

Will Rose: 00:39:18

Yeah, I like the contemplative nature of the song. I think the pace and the vibe of the actual music fits with the lyrics and the questions that he's asking.

You know, if it was like screamo metal, I might be like, what?

Joshua Noel: 00:39:30

What?

Will Rose: 00:39:30

If it was like rap, hip hop, if it was like, really disco, I'd be like, what, what are we talking about? But I think I, I, I like the music connected with the lyrics, and he's got a good voice, so I like, I like the style. I don't, Again, I don't.

I'm like you. I don't listen to a lot of Christian music on the radio or, or him. I do hymns on Sunday.

And then I have regular quote, unquote, secular music that I do in the world in certain bands and stuff. But so, so this was, this was nice to reflect on. And, and the first thing, what is the meaning of Christian?

I was like, man, yeah, what a deep question that we should ask every single day. If you claim identify as Christian, then what does it mean to be that in the world?

And there's so much entangled with that word and so much baggage, but, man, it's a question we should reflect on and look in the mirror and ask every morning when we wake up and splash our face. Remember our baptism?

Joshua Noel: 00:40:21

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't want to do this, but, like, every line of this, especially verse one, I think really starts strong.

What is the meaning of Christian in this American life? You know, our theology is always contextualized whether we acknowledge it or not, right? Like, you just can't help it.

And in the world where, like, I'm looking around and seeing all these people saying that they're Christian and what they're doing, and I'm like, well, I want to say I'm Christian because I like this Jesus guy in the Bible, but I mean, I don't want to identify with this group of people, man. And then, you know, I have a heart full of question. You know, when I first hear that, I'm like, okay, yeah, I resonate with that.

And it's like, quieting my suggestions. And then I have to reflect on, like, what does that mean? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I do that, too.

Where I'm like, okay, well, these people aren't really Christian. And then immediately I'm like, well, what does it actually mean to be Christian? And I'm like, okay, well, Jesus would have done this.

And I'm, you know, like, I keep having all these thoughts of, like, what I think should be or what could be and all this stuff.

And immediately it's just all the questions because, like, we just live in a world where I'm like, no, actually, it's not right to say that's not Christian. Because people who are identifying that, like, when they're looking at our religion saying, well, Christians do this. They're not wrong.

So I'm like, man, even the end, like, I'm feeling foolish spending my life on the message, wondering if I ever heard it right? I'm like, yeah, me, I dedicated my whole life. And I was part of that conservative Christian group, right?

And I went to their colleges, learned all their stuff, and now I read the Bible for fun. Before a long time I was reading it every month because I thought I had to. And I, like, I really dedicated myself to this.

And I'm like, okay, we're going to tell people about God and Jesus. We're going to do stuff according to the Bible.

And then the people who told me that that was what my entire life's mission should be about, or supporting a sex predator for president are being hateful to their neighbors, are cursing out people in the streets, are causing violence in the White House. And I'm like, yeah, I'm full. Feeling awfully foolish.

Will Rose: 00:42:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And then, you know, it's like when people ask me, do you believe in God? And I'm like, what God are you talking about? Are you a Christian?

Well, what kind of Christian are you talking about? There's a lot of stuff.

So if I just say, yeah, there's a lot of assumptions or suggestions made and I don't want them to hear the message of what their preconceived notions are or stereotypes are be. So there's more questions behind the question than do you believe in God? Do you claim to be a Christian? Would you believe this? Jesus? Got to be.

You know, there's a lot of messages flying around. A lot of them I don't agree with. So there's other questions.

I like it that Jesus answered questions with questions because he wanted to get behind what the question, the original question being asked, and go deeper. And I feel like I need to do that. When people ask me what seems to be a clear cut answer, yes or no? No, it's a little more nuanced.

We need more context here.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:03

Yeah.

And even that I struggle with because I would like to just say, well, I don't believe in the God that you're talking about or I'm not that kind of Christian. And I think I can say that somewhat honestly.

But I do get a problem when we do some of this and act like, oh, those other people aren't Christians, or your concerns about God aren't legit. Because yeah, there's a history that if I'm going to call myself Christian, I got to wrestle with that history.

If I say I believe in God, I can't just wave it away. Oh, I don't mean that God I still have to wrestle with. Well, why don't I mean that God?

You know, I don't want to just say those are bad questions either, you know, or those concerns you have about Christianity and God are wrong because I'm not that kind of Christian. I don't leave that kind of God. They're still legit concerns. I don't know. I just feel like I can't just wave it away.

But I also can't identify with that either.

Will Rose: 00:43:52

At camp this past week, I had a God question box. And so students could write questions and put them in there and then we'd read them and try to answer them and we kind of joke.

Pastor Ally and I were taking turns answering the questions and I'd hand her A question. And, you know, they're not yes or no answers, but she would go, short answer, yes, long answer. And then point to me. I'm like, oh, okay.

And then when I had a question, I'd be, short answer, no, long answer. Point to Ally, go for it. And so he's like, you feel like there's more behind it. It's not just yes or no. And it's complicated. It's hard.

And Jesus operated that way, too. And these start off right, off strong of, yeah, have a heart full of questions. You have permission to ask questions.

And what does it mean to be Christian? And then, you know, am I right? Am I wrong?

Joshua Noel: 00:44:37

Yeah. Yeah, well.

And I'm feeling foolish thing, like, again, I just feel like so many people are in the same boat as me and maybe in a more intense way where, yeah, like, we. It just.

It makes you feel foolish when you grew up buying this whole thing of, like, we don't support Democrats because Clinton was sexually promiscuous. And then you see what's happening. You're like, well, man, I feel dumb for believing that stuff that you told me because you clearly don't believe it.

Or we do what the Bible says no matter what. Okay. So that means helping our neighbor and feeding the hungry. Oh, no, that's woke. And like, I don't know.

I feel like there's a lot of people in the boat with me who can listen to this song and go, yeah, I was a youth pastor once. Or I did this once. And we go to theology. We can't.

We have a lot of people who used to be employed by the church, and it's almost like we end up now, we do disagree with the church, but a lot of us didn't leave because of our disagreements. We left because we believed what they told us.

Will Rose: 00:45:27

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:28

And it turns out they didn't believe it. Yeah. Well, do you want to go ahead and jump to our verse section here and then we'll do verse two after that.

Will Rose: 00:45:41

Okay, here's the next. Next lines that we're going to go.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:44

Back and forth for.

Will Rose: 00:45:45

Coming to you because I'm confused Coming.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:48

To you because I feel used Coming.

Will Rose: 00:45:50

To weep while I'm waiting Tell me you, you don't wait Tell me you.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:55

Won'T make me go I need to know there is justice that this is both of us okay. I need to know there's justice that.

Will Rose: 00:46:05

Will roll in abundance.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:06

Abundance.

And that you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants and you call us citizens and you welcome us as children Home might have been a little choppy, but, you know, that's. That's how it works.

Will Rose: 00:46:20

That's how liturgy works. Sometimes it's not supposed to be perfect. Yeah, the work of the people.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:24

Work as a people. Yeah. All right, so let's go ahead and let's look at what verse two looks like, if I can remember. Which one of these are verse two. Okay.

Yeah, they're in order from here. Cool. All right, verse two of Citizens with John Guerrero.

"Citizens," by Jon Guerra: 00:46:42

You were alone and rejected, misunderstood and detested. You gave it all, didn't hold back. You even gave up your life.

How can we call ourselves Christians saying that love is a tension between the call of the crossing between the old party line?

Joshua Noel: 00:47:05

All right.

Will Rose: 00:47:06

Yeah, man.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:08

Yeah, yeah. You want to lead us in this part?

Will Rose: 00:47:11

Yeah, I like that. He asked the question of, am I hearing this message right? I call myself Christian. What does that mean?

And then he goes to the source material, Jesus himself, and examines him in the Gospels and how he postured himself in the world. And he's seen what it means to be Christian from Christ himself. And so. So he's like, yeah, you are alone and rejected.

You experience the same feelings that I did. You were misunderstood. You gave up your life. You went to the cross. People question how you loved people.

Wait, yeah, we're supposed to love people, but not that way. Not that person, not that group. What do you mean? You're going to change our system and threaten how we do things? We've not done it that way before.

Wait a minute. And so the old party line is being challenged by. By the Christ. So I love how he comes back around.

And, yeah, he's not just throwing a question out there. He goes back to the source material and examines it for himself. He goes searching. He goes on a journey and finds some answers.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:05

Yeah, yeah, this might be a weird connection. And also, I don't know if this band is, like, bad or if they should be canceled from one side or the other. I don't know anything about the band.

I just know I used to like the song a lot. King's Kaleidoscope has a song called It's Just a Prayer, and it was right after the lead singer, I think his son killed himself is what it was.

And, man, I think the reason it got me is it was the first time I think I heard a Christian song with swear words in it.

And I'll censor it for this, but, yeah, he's singing to God, and he's actually like, if I fall or if I misstep if I call you with my last breath, are you going to be there for me after? And he says, I'm wasting in the silence because my fear is effing violent. And like near the end he's like, Jesus, where are you, you?

And to this part where Jesus is responding in the songs, like, I'm, I'm right beside you. I feel what you feel. And that's, that's what I'm getting out of this is this moment of like, yeah, maybe the fear is effing violent.

You know, I'm trying to keep this from being explicit because I want as many people here as possible. But sometimes the fear, fear because you know it's real. And yeah, Jesus felt it too. He was alone and rejected.

I think that's what the song said, right?

Will Rose: 00:49:15

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:16

Alone and rejected, misunderstood, detested, Gave it all. I think that's, that's one of the key ones too is like he gave it all. Like it wasn't like.

I think a lot of times we think of Jesus as really mild mannered and stuff because of like some of those cheesy Jesus videos. I'm like, no, this dude was like sometimes, sometimes he was mild manner and chill.

And sometimes he was like angry about like what people were doing in the temple, selling it out. And sometimes he was like, hey, I'm gonna be a sword between father and son. And sometimes he was like, guys just love each other.

Like, what are you doing? You know, like Jesus wasn't a one dimensional character either.

Will Rose: 00:49:47

Yeah. When he gave it all, you know, they even cast loss for a clothes. So like he, he didn't own property, he didn't own a lot.

He had friends and he had supporters, he had backers. He crowdsourced his, his movement. But then, you know, in terms of what he literally owned, he, he gave it all, even the shirt off his back.

They cast lots and gambled for.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:07

Yeah. And he's the king of non violent resistance. Even into the point of death. Death. And that's where I love that he brings this like who Jesus was.

And then he goes, how can we call ourselves Christians? Saying that love is a tension between the call of the cross and between the old party line and for Americans.

It's funny because like he doesn't say Republicans, he doesn't, like he's not calling it by name, but I don't think anyone in America today hears that line and doesn't know what he means.

Will Rose: 00:50:37

Yeah, 100. Yeah. And you know, I had a, one of the questions in our God question box from Our teenagers camp.

Last week, one of them was like, is it okay to skip a Jesus tick tock video? Like, you just scroll. So the question was, do I need to watch every single Jesus tick tock?

And I'm like, well, it depends on what they're trying to portray. If they're portraying Jesus Right. Or not, or they're parodying them or whatever. No, you can skip it. If.

If someone's not portraying who Jesus is, then that. Skip it, scroll on past. You don't need to pay attention or waste your energy on it. So I love the that.

Is it a sin to scroll to go past and she's talking with you? Well, it depends. It depends.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:13

Yeah. Sometimes they're not representing him that well anyway. But yeah, yeah. Also, maybe Jesus doesn't need clingy people. He might be fine.

I think he'll be okay.

Will Rose: 00:51:24

It'll be fine.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:25

Yeah. I don't know. I'm ready to go on to the next stuff because I'm excited for what's coming up. Do you have anything else you want to cover with this or.

Will Rose: 00:51:32

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:32

All right, then let's get into our reverse reading. Coming to you. For the mothers who are all running.

Will Rose: 00:51:39

For cover, there is a flood from their weeping. Tell me you won't make them go.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:45

And you know there is justice. There is justice.

That it will roll in abundance and that you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants and call us citizens and you welcome us as children home.

Will Rose: 00:52:00

Yeah, we did a little better there. Look at there.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:02

Yeah. Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:52:02

I love the beginning. The first question. The first question was, tell me you won't make me go. And then this verse says, tell them. Tell me you won't make them go.

So he's identifying in solidarity, not just himself.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:16

Yeah. And I think it intentionally kind of shifts our focus throughout the song. Yeah. But. All right, let's look at verse three.

I believe this is verse three, and see what we got next.

"Citizens," by Jon Guerra: 00:52:38

There is a man with a family. He has a wife and a baby. He broke the law just to save them working for three bucks an hour. Truly, you said we were equal.

Everyone's heart is deceitful, everyone bold.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:58

All right, all right. Oh, and that. That one line confused me at first.

Will Rose: 00:53:04

Which one?

Joshua Noel: 00:53:05

I won't say that. The end was like, everyone born is illegal when love is lawful. And I'm like, why? Why wouldn't everybody be legal? We just let everybody in.

And then I thought about it more, and I was like, wait a minute. Yeah. God, if I believe this Jesus story, he didn't say, well, everybody's a God now. He says, I'm going to become man. And that's what love looks like.

I'm going to come to you. I'm going to suffer with you. There isn't sinners out there. It's sinners like me. It's not, hey, these people are illegal. It's.

Well, if they're illegal, I am too.

Will Rose: 00:53:35

If love is the law of the land. Yeah, if love is the law of the land, then I'm going to see everyone in solidarity. Everyone's going to be on the same playing field.

We're always equal together.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:45

Yeah. Skip until the end of the verse. But it just. That was the one that confused now I'm like, oh, I like the move.

Will Rose: 00:53:51

And the movement of the song. From me personally looking inward now, look outward to Jesus, the source material.

And then I look outward beyond that to the person and my neighbor around me. And seeing how the Jesus story. I'm using the Jesus story as the lens by which I view other people, not just the party line that's been given to me.

I'm going to examine Jesus. And that's the frame. That's a hermeneutic. That's the lens of where I see the other out there of the wife, the husband, the. Those working for.

Lower their minimum wage. Yeah, everyone's heart is deceitful, but I look through it through the lens of Christ, I'm going to see things in a new way.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:24

Yeah. Yeah. Well, even looking at it through the lens of Jesus, it's interesting because a, I can see if we ignore that there's layers to this.

I can just read. There's a man with the family. He has a wife and a baby, and he broke the law just to save them.

And I can empathize with, oh, that's a man who wants to save his kids. But I'm also looking through it with the lens of Jesus. And we're like, oh, well, he shouldn't have broke the law. Hey, guys, Jesus broke the law.

In fact, a lot of Pharisees and Sadducees were pretty mad at him for it.

Will Rose: 00:54:53

It's probably what got into.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:54

And then the Romans killed him. Yeah, like, Jesus broke the law. So, like, we. We go through this. Jesus is our, like, story. And then like, we go this.

And I'm like, yeah, it's hard to follow that up with, oh, he shouldn't have broke the law. After we just talked about Jesus breaking the law. Right. Like, I don't know. That's difficult. Yeah. Oh, man. Any.

Anything else for you here or how's this move you, especially in our context? You know, we talked a lot about Trump and everything now. I mean.

Will Rose: 00:55:21

Yeah, it's just, you know, of course there's, you know, I saw a meme being passed away of like, yeah, love your neighbor. Who is our. Who is our neighbor?

And then Jesus goes, probably one that think that you're probably the person you think that's not your neighbor or whatever. Like, it's kind of like, yeah, the one that you're seeing as you didn't.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:39

Want me to say. Say that.

Will Rose: 00:55:40

Yeah, whoever you didn't want me to say. That's. That's it. So I think. I think that we're all fault of that.

Whether it's me looking at people who didn't vote the way I did or don't see the world as I do is convicting. You know, it's this. This song is prophetic in a way that it holds up to mirror to me as well.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:57

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just. I don't know. It is. It is so frustrating because I know people like this who.

Who's breaking a law just to live, and I know people who say these terrible things about them, and it is just crazy to realize, like, I've been on both sides of this argument at this point. And it's also challenging for me being more progressive now than I used to be. I still don't know if I would call myself progressive.

And just seeing other people who do identify as progressive and how. Just how little love there is for those who don't see things the way that some of us do. And it's like, man, that's challenging, too. Yep. Yeah.

All right, you go ahead and do this versus the next chorus bit here.

Will Rose: 00:56:38

Yeah. Let me just say the course we all say together is repetitive. And that's. That's.

If it's going to be the main theme or the red thread through this thing, I. I think. And really take that to heart. I think not just say it or sing it, but look at the intentional words. But. But, yeah, let's do the liturgy Coming.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:53

To you for the hungry eating the scraps of this country didn't you swear.

Will Rose: 00:56:57

You would feed them? Tell me you won't make them go.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:00

I need to know there is justice roll in abundance and building a city where we arrive as entrance and you call us citizens and you wel welcome us as children home. All right, let's try to do verse four and verse five isn't like a full Verse, I feel like. So that'll be a little bit different here at the end, too.

"Citizens," by Jon Guerra: 00:57:35

All of the sheep, they're clapping, promising power and protection, claiming the Christ who is killed. Killed by a common consensus. Everyone screaming. Barabbas trading their God for a hero, forfeiting heaven for Rome.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:54

Man. Yeah, that's a. That's a good one. Yeah, good. Good Even feels like a weird word to say here. It's a challenging one. Powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do you want to say anything about this before we. We jump in? Like, what?

Will Rose: 00:58:11

No, I mean, it was written in: 2020

Joshua Noel: 00:58:23

But.

Will Rose: 00:58:23

But, you know, really a wolf that is ranting and their sheep are clamp clapping. You know, this predatory nature of leaders who are really commodifying faith, who are leading blind sheep their way to really get in. Yeah.

Power and privilege. All. All those things. And insert your least favorite politician with wolf. Right. You know, but. But for me, I know who that represents. That and those.

Who that icon is for me at this present age. But I guess there's debate and talking about, you know, I don't think it's helpful in the dialogue or the debate or the conversation.

Say, well, but your guy did this. Well, you're. And you're like, as a competition of who's worse and make a list.

I think we need to look at the overall systems in place that prey upon the sheep or who the consensus is that say, you know, we choose Barabbas, we choose Herod, we choose Lex Luthor rather than Jesus.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

back to Covid, you know, this: 2020

Will Rose: 00:59:50

And yeah, January 6th too. You know, they chose Barabbas, who started a riot.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:54

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:59:55

You know, rather than. Rather than.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:58

Yeah. It's ironic this song was written before January 6th because it kind of. This feels like a description of January 6th, almost. Yeah, yeah.

Because that would have been the following year, I guess, man. Yeah, I didn't think about that. But even without it being Donald Trump, which it is about that, I think, think.

And if not, it's just, I don't think you can be a Christian in America today, understand the Bible, see what's going on in the world and not see that.

But the whole thing here, the first half, there's a wolf who's ranting, all the sheep are clapping and promising power and protection, claiming Christ who was killed, maybe he just watched Star wars and was like, oh, yeah, this is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause. But, you know, I'm thinking it doesn't have to be Trump. Democrats do something similar.

I haven't seen it to the same degree, but like, we're promising power and protection, claiming Jesus.

That's most of our politicians, or no, I'm going to protect your group, people who are like you, they're going to be protected and you're going to be in charge now.

And that's going to mean that this will happen and everything will be great in our country, because now you have the power and you have the protection, and that's what Jesus would have wanted. Politicians do that on both sides.

Will Rose: 01:01:04

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:04

That's what they do. And people fall for it. They clap because, oh, I want the power, I want that protection.

And that's just never what Jesus was about, was getting more power and protecting our people. It was about sacrificing, giving up, helping others, empowering others.

Will Rose: 01:01:21

Yeah.

Right around the, the assassination attempt on, on Trump, I remember somebody on our Systemic Ecology account, you know, chimed in and, and on my own, said, like, really, you believe, like that God or made a comment like, God destined him for, saved his life? And I was like, is that. Do you really believe that? What about the other people who died? That bad theology. I don't was, you know, hopped in there.

What I thought was a good question. He's like, nope, I think God saved his life because he's going to save our country. And I'm like, from what? What are you saving it from?

What are you saving it for? I was just like, there's. There's more questions I have. He's one thing to say he's going to save our country from what? For who? Who's going to who?

Who does he look out for? Who do you think he really cares about? All those questions are, Are there?

Joshua Noel: 01:02:07

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it's a little bit, bit weird, this comparison, and maybe you'll help me unpack A little bit immediately comparing it to people screaming, barabbas choosing to let Jesus die. Because like, that situation wasn't them choosing some hero in protection over Jesus. They were choosing Barabbas, who was a criminal.

Maybe they thought it would just appease the Romans if they let Jesus die. I don't know. I didn't. I don't know. I feel like I'm missing something with. Well, part of the comparison.

Will Rose: 01:02:35

Barabbas helped start a riot. He was a zealot.

So, you know, if they're choosing someone who's like a rebel against their oppressor, you know, we'd rather have this guy who represents outright rebellion and violence against our oppressor rather than some rabbi who's preaching peace or about Samaritan or nonviolence or flipping over tables in the, in the, in the temple and talking about systemic change rather than, you know, what's going on with Rome.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:05

So, you know, that is interesting.

Will Rose: 01:03:07

You know, I don't know what Bravis's name means. We could look it up.

But I think, you know, instead of choosing a crim, but a criminal in whose eyes, you know, Trump is saying, oh, Obama's a criminal, arrest him. Because he. Blah, blah, blah. It's just a distracting thing at the moment. But yeah, anybody can say you're a criminal. That guy's a criminal.

From whose eyes? Whose laws they breaking? They're breaking Roman law, breaking Jewish law.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:28

Yeah, yeah, I.

Will Rose: 01:03:31

It.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:31

Man, that's interesting. I think that would be an interesting. If that's what we're juxtaposing.

That that's actually really challenging too, because it's not saying the people who are for the wolf are the problem, the sole problem. It's the people choosing violence against their oppressors.

Whether that is someone promising protection from the last government because we don't like Democrats in office or Republicans office or who was before or, you know, whatever the choice is, are we choosing people who are fighting physically fighting on the political realm, or are we choosing this non violent method of resistance that just cares about. About the other, the one instead of the flock? Yeah, yeah, man. And then forfeiting heaven for Rome. I was like, oh, that's good. Just a good line.

I'm like, oh, that's. I could almost get that tattooed on me. Oh, man. Yeah, yeah. All right, you want to do this last part of the chorus before we do the.

The final little verse.

Will Rose: 01:04:31

Pressure's on. Pressure's on. All right, here we go. Coming to you because I'm angry.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:36

Coming to you because I'M guilty Coming.

Will Rose: 01:04:38

To you because you've promised to leave the flock for the one.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:42

I need to know there is justice that I will roll in abundance and that you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants and you call us citizens and you welcome us as children home. That one was pretty good. Here we go. It's probably not actually a verse, but, you know, pro, pro, maybe. Proud refrain. Yeah, yeah.

"Citizens," by Jon Guerra: 01:05:12

Is there a way to love always Living in enemy always?

I don't know my foes for my friends I don't know my friends anymore Power has several prizes Handcuffs can come in all sizes Love has a million disguises but winning is simply not one.

Joshua Noel: 01:05:37

Man. Heavy end for heavy song. Heavy end. And I actually. I love that it doesn't go to the chorus again. That it's drops. Winning is not one. Oh, yeah.

Will Rose: 01:05:50

Again. Jesus.

Joshua Noel: 01:05:51

That was rough, man.

Will Rose: 01:05:52

Jesus math. Yeah, that's powerful. And I love the bridge. And it just ends. It's a mic drop. It leaves you in, leaves you sitting with it and.

Joshua Noel: 01:06:03

Yeah, well done.

Will Rose: 01:06:04

Well done.

Joshua Noel: 01:06:05

Yeah, yeah. I just. Yeah. Sorry. It really is. It's so challenging. Is there a way to love always living in enemy hallways?

And I mean, I don't think no matter what side the political spectrum you are on, if you're a red state or blue state, you're a red state. You might be surrounded by people who are hating the immigrants or filled with bigotry or, you know, whatever.

And you're like, man, is there a way to love always living in this. Maybe you're in a blue state and you're like, man, people just. They don't care about, you know, what other stuff. Children, family values.

Something like that. And you're like, man, I live in this world and how do I be a Christian living in enemy hallways? How do I love always? Yeah, I don't know.

And I like that he doesn't answer it because sometimes we just need something that feels what we're feeling. So we know. Know that we're not alone. I guess. I don't know.

Will Rose: 01:06:56

Yeah, that whole. I don't know my friends anymore.

You know, after this last election 2.0, people were going like, wow, is this really a reason to, you know, not be friends anymore? And. And I was just honest on somebody's post.

It's like, look, dude, like, if we're arguing about how much money NASA should get, I don't think that's going to break up our.

Joshua Noel: 01:07:14

Our.

Will Rose: 01:07:15

Our friendship. But if you're all openly supporting a guy who condemns or Others or doesn't like my.

A whole group of friends that I care about, then I'm going to question my friendship with you.

If you don't care about my friends, if there's one of my friends who doesn't like 10 of my friends, then I'm going to question whether that person is a friend to me and to my other friends. So of course I'm going to question my loyalties. And we're seeing that in some of our families as well. Not just friends, but families.

And, you know, it's causing more polarization through that. But that's, I think that's a decent, decent question and realization. I don't think I know my friends anymore. Anymore.

I have to reevaluate, reorient, and rethink who my friends really are if they support this dude or system.

Joshua Noel: 01:08:00

Yeah.

Well, I've been running a church unity podcast for many years now, and it is one of those where it's like, man, sometimes it's, I thought we were all working together for the same purpose of loving Jesus, and sometimes I'm not sure about that. And even sometimes I'm like, I'm not sure how many of these people who say their churches actually care about doing the right thing.

I mentioned that church earlier with what's going on with the sex scandals there in Greenville and so many pastors and stuff were at January 6th riot. There are pastors rioting against the Capitol, causing violence, like literal violence.

Yeah, People I thought that were, you know, good Christian, I know my whole life are supporting someone who's a sex predator, likely a pedophile, seeming more and more all the time, who still finding excuses for this guy to swear and just dehumanize others. Even getting away from the Donald Trump stuff. I mean, so many Christians are talking about how, oh, well, people who, who voted conservative at all.

I just don't think any of them can be a Christian. And there we shouldn't have to show them love or be decent humans to them.

And I'm like, there's a difference to me in saying, I don't want to associate with someone who thinks it's okay to support that guy. And saying, I'm going to dehumanize these people because they supported someone who dehumanized those people. People.

Then you're just perpetuating the problem. And I'm seeing that everywhere, too. And it's, yeah, I don't know my friends anymore. Yeah.

And then those last three lines, or I guess three and a half, four lines. Power has several prizes Handcuffs come in all sizes. Love has a million disguises. But winning is simply not one.

That last one I think I get because that's just right up my utilitarian thing is like, yeah, love isn't. Hey, what has the best outcome? When do I win? How do I get power? How do I make sure my people are protected?

Yeah, that's not love, that's self serving. But yeah, all that stuff.

Will Rose: 01:09:50

Yeah. Nowhere you find in the, in the gospels where Jesus is saying him with the mo. Him or her with the most toys wins. Go grab whatever you want.

Winning is all at all cost. In fact, he inverts that, he flips it. It's the last we first, the first be last. In fact he's like, if you're a loser, there you go.

Read, read the Beatitudes, read, read the Sermon of the Mount and, and think about in terms of how Jesus postures himself and who he thinks the winners and losers are.

Joshua Noel: 01:10:14

And it's a, it interesting too. Jesus never says fights for your rights. The closest you get is him telling you to fight for others. Maybe he wants you to fight for their rights.

I don't think he cares so much about you fighting for your rights. Yeah, yeah. In fact, those who don't know or don't think about it often.

Jesus lived in a world where Romans were really coming down hard on the Jewish people. In Israel, their religious liberty was at stake.

One thing, you know, that we like to talk about a lot in America is religious liberty, your right to believe what you want. And not once did Jesus show up and say, fight for your right to believe. Nope, that's just not something he seemed to care that much about.

Will Rose: 01:10:52

Yeah, I think there's a little story about a soldier getting his hair cut off and Jesus like puts your shoulders away.

Joshua Noel: 01:10:56

Yeah. Which is my favorite part of that story that everybody seems to ignore.

This is one of my pet peeves when pastors talk about this story and ignore why did Peter have the sword? Jesus had him pick the sword up. Jesus intentionally had his disciples pick up swords so they could choose to defend themselves. Themselves.

Just to show that it was a choice not to defend themselves. It's like, yeah, we're gonna have weapons just to show that we're not going to use them. God, it was just fun.

Sorry, I don't know, I'm just a Bible geek. Sometimes I'm like, I love the Bible. It's so good.

Will Rose: 01:11:28

It is, it is good story.

Joshua Noel: 01:11:30

Yeah.

But yeah, the course we never went over course I did that intentionally because I wanted to get through these verses and looking at like the stories that he's telling through the song. But this course is a need to.

Well, we talked about part of it, but the part that we haven't really spoke about, that we've been quoting this whole time and affirming together. I need to know there's justice, that it will roll in abundance.

That you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants, you call us citizens and you welcome us as children. Home will. What's. What are your reflections on that?

Will Rose: 01:12:00

Well, I, I think, I, I think of Amos the prophet. Amos, let justice roll down. And that's definitely what he's alluding to.

There's a prophetic word here as we talked about the beginning, you know, with the context of this. And again, prophecy, prophetic word isn't necessary.

Fortune telling or saying that Russia is going to invade America in the last times and we are raptured. That's not it.

It is, it is holding up a mirror and, and speaking to our present contact with God's word and calling us to be God's people and to change and to revealing the systems in place that are undermining or commodifying God. And so I think here, let justice roll down. It'll roll. It will roll in abundance. There's a, there's a statement of faith there.

I need to know that there is justice, that it will roll in abundance.

Like help me know this, that there's not just nihilism, that, that the person with the most toys and powers wins, that there, there is justice at the.

Joshua Noel: 01:12:55

End of the day.

Will Rose: 01:12:56

Help me understand. You're building a city that doesn't look like the one. One that is being envisioned by those in power.

Joshua Noel: 01:13:03

Yeah, yeah, it's. Think about that justice in context of each verse too. And first it's like I feel confused. All these people that told me this is what the message was.

And now I'm like, did I ever hear it right? I need to know there's justice.

This family, these people, mothers who are crying for their children, father who's trying to just do something for his family and he has to break the law to do it. They need to know there's justice. These people are she sheep are cheering on the wolf. I need to know there's justice.

And it's just one of those like, yeah, man, that word justice can mean a lot of things. Doesn't always mean punishment. Right.

Sometimes in this case, we're looking at that restorative justice and we're like, man, what does it mean for those sheep who are cheering on the wolf? What does it mean for them to have justice? What does it mean for that dad who's breaking the law law just because he wants to support his family?

What does justice actually look like?

Will Rose: 01:13:55

Yeah, yeah, it's similar. Like words matter.

And so people, you know, before you go into some deep discussions about God and love and Jesus and Christianity and church science, you need to define some terms and have some common ground of what you mean by when you say those words. And the justice is another one of those words. Can't just throw it out there and assume that everybody knows what that means.

And so I think there is room to ask, what does justice mean? What does it look like? Is it punitive? Is it it restorative? Is it revenge based? Is it to. To bring wholeness to the, to the world? Is it God's justice?

Is it man's justice? I think all that there's room, but it is hard to have civil conversations when a whole group or a side of people dehumanize a whole another side.

And that goes for either side. And I think we can have discussions, we can have debates. Let's have. I love that.

Like, you know what was so crazy and revealing about this last election is when the two vice president candidates got on there and they talked like normal human beings. Like, wow, wow, look at this. There's actually human beings that are talking to each other. I'm like, yes, we can have that.

Why are we doing this the other way? Why are you backing the guy who doesn't operate that way? I don't care if J.D.

vance is a means to an end that maybe one day he could do next time or whatever. I don't care. He's selling out to somebody else. And so, yeah, we could have better. We've had better. What, how do we do this?

Next is a big lingering question. Where do we go from here?

Joshua Noel: 01:15:16

Yeah, yeah. And it is easy to pick on one side now because they're following Donald Trump and he is just such a clearly evil man.

And I'm not going to do what about him? I think that that is the worst side.

But I will say for a long time, part of the reason people are supporting him is because they were treated as all these rednecks. And you even hear in like young culture today, he's like, oh, that guy's so Republican. And they just mean by like what he looks like.

That's all they're talking about and belittling it. It's like, oh, I can't do that. That's like, Republican. And like. Yeah, you talk down to people like that all the time, and guess what?

They're gonna lash out. And sometimes it looks scary and terrifying, and it's probably because the people you lashed out on against were scared and terrified. Yeah, yeah.

They thought they were losing their way of life, and that's scary. So I don't think justice necessarily looks like punishing anybody, you know, but yeah. Yeah. Even the last part, the part of.

And again, you know, I mentioned earlier my eschatology. I'm not sure that afterlife stuff. I'm iffy about. I'm hopeful, but I'm iffy about it.

You know, it's not the most important thing to me, so I just don't feel too solid about it.

But I think if we remember that we are now the body of Christ supposedly building the kingdom of heaven, right now, that part of, like, you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants, you call us citizens, and you welcome us as children home kind of has a dual meaning. That's. That's crazy, right? Like, are we.

Will Rose: 01:16:42

Well, yeah, that's the chorus. The Citizens is the name of the song. Song. So it's like, what does it mean to be a citizen? A good citizen?

Joshua Noel: 01:16:48

Yeah, we call them citizen when they arrive as immigrants, just as we think, you know, whether you believe in an afterlife or not, the story is we come to God as people who don't necessarily belong, who maybe have fallen away, or if you believe, born in sin, cool. If not, I think everybody has sinned. You know, I know the things I've done. And when I come to God, I'm not coming to him as someone who.

Who's been righteous all the time, who is the son of God. I'm coming to him as maybe a little bit of a foreigner to God's ways.

And I'm thankful that every day he seems to look at me and go, as an immigrant, he looks at me and says, I'm going to call you a citizen.

And he welcomes me back as a child, no matter how many times I mess up and all the other stupid stuff I do, where maybe I go away from God's ways and are we building that city on earth that's like that. I don't know. The other thing this makes me think of isn't. It's ironic because yesterday we talked about my.

My mom's dad, Papa Paw, on a podcast we did for Systematic Ecology. Today I'm going to talk about Pepaw, my dad's dad. And it's really that whole side of the family is what this course really makes me think of.

And that's why the one time I just started crying listening to this, because I think about my grandpa on that side lived out in the middle of Kentucky, so my mom's side from the Appalachians, other side from the hills of Kentucky. And somehow I did not turn out. You might expect, expect, but it's fine. But he's, you know, the hills, look duck yellow stuff.

And I would just keep bringing friends when we came for the summer or Christmas or whatever who maybe didn't have other places to go. And you know, my friend Jama, I had friends who weren't, who were queer.

You know, I brought friends who were of different ethnicities, I brought friends who were different genders, all kinds of stuff. And my grandpa didn't care. He loved all of them. And the funniest part to me about him is he would call and ask about him.

He'd send them letters even if he just met him once up till the day he died. And it's so funny because like, even people that I thought for a long time were actually related to me, they weren't.

He just called him family anyway. We just had so many people that are just so close knit. And it's because 81 he met, he was like, okay, well we're family now. And that's, that's cool.

Will Rose: 01:18:53

Yeah. And led family, found family, discovered family.

Joshua Noel: 01:18:57

Yeah, that's just, that's the image I see with this of like, like, are we building a city where I don't necessarily care what gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality you're coming to with me on. I'm just welcoming you as a family, as a child or are we trying to other and say who belongs, who doesn't belong?

And like what, what kind of game are we playing here? And the idea of like whether you believe there's this real heaven out there or you know, shout out to my more ort con kind of friends.

Maybe you think that after we pass we just become part of the divine consciousness. You know, my grandpa would be part of that. And that's this. Are we building that city where we are welcoming everybody as children coming home?

I don't know any, any final thought thoughts, Will.

Will Rose: 01:19:42

I mean, he's in there. Well, good. I don't want to add on to that. That's, that's good.

Coming home if, if we're coming home to God and, and that's our destiny and that's where God is drawing us in with God's gravitational pull of. Of grace and love and mercy and how we contributing to that. What that home looks like here and now, not just way off the distance. It matters.

What we do now matters. Your matter matters, Joshua.

Joshua Noel: 01:20:06

I like that. I like that. Your matter matters. Yeah. And just be welcoming. I think that's probably the main thrust of the song.

It's just like be welcoming, be loving. It doesn't have to be about. We don't have to stop arguing with each other. We don't have to stop any of this other stuff. Just welcome people and.

And I feel like it's pretty simple.

Will Rose: 01:20:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:20:25

Yeah. All right then with that we'll go ahead and start wrapping this up.

I mentioned I. I think I am going to soon do like a pirate music episode and just talk about a pirate music or songs about pirates and probably have fun with that. I don't know what else might be in the works. As we mentioned, the show doesn't really have a plan or schedule anything like that really.

It just kind of happens.

Will Rose: 01:20:45

Hey, I'm going to a concert tonight with Anna. We're going to Cindy live lopper from the 80s. Girls just want to have fun. Joshua. Girls just wanna. I might get on here about that.

You know, she's a song for Goonies. She all kind of stuff. I'm ready. Maybe. Maybe I'll do a Cyndi Lauper podcast.

Joshua Noel: 01:21:01

I'm trying to remember what was the. What was the Weird Al version? Girls just want to have lunch. That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. She'll do that cover squirrels.

Will Rose: 01:21:10

Squirrels just want to have fun, you know.

Joshua Noel: 01:21:12

But anyway, guys, guys. Yeah, so we don't. We don't know what's playing. If you guys want to host an episode, let us know. Anyone can host. It's not just, you know, the elite.

Anybody can host episode. If you guys want to do an episode of some joyful novices emails in the description let us know.

We would love to host an episode of you talking about your favorite music. You know. Also remember, rate review Share this wherever you can subscribe because we don't know when episode released. There is no schedule.

So if you don't subscribe you won't know because we don't know when episodes come out and we hope you all can just join us as we continue to find more music to sing along to maybe do liturgy with and just to continue making some joyful noises together until next time.