Understanding Trauma through Song: Dr. Beck Discusses the Connection to His Upcoming Book

Joshua Noel: 00:00:33

Producer Joshua here for a fun bonus, we're giving you this episode of the Whole Church podcast's patron feed for free. We're throwing this up on the Some Joyful Noises podcast as a sample of what you can get as a patron on the Whole Church podcast.

Part of why we're doing this is because this kind of mini episode that we did with Dr. Beck after our full episode of the Whole Church podcast promoting his book the Dark Night of the Soul, which is really deep, and we got some really good stuff in here, so I didn't want anyone to miss out. So we're releasing this for full, for free.

And if you want more content like this again, please consider becoming a patron of the Whole Church podcast. Thank you, and we hope you enjoy this conversation with Dr. Peter Beck.

Peter Beck: 00:01:26

Who are they?

Joshua Noel: 00:01:28

Ah, Jude and the Lion. I like doing the bonus days where I just hit record while we're talking. Good question. Actually. I don't know. I don't know a ton.

I do know I followed the one guy's relationship for a while, cuz, like, he fell in love and then he tried to leave her. Then there's this song that their most popular song is like, what is it? What's that song called?

TJ Blackwell: 00:01:52

Yeah, I don't know.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:53

I know anytime. Except for now. I take it all back. He's like, I would take it all back just to have. Just to be with you or to have you or something.

And then they end up getting back together and then having a really nasty divorce. And he wrote one song after the divorce that really had nothing to do with it.

That I was like, okay, I mean, this is cool, but like, why'd you release an album right after that and it not have to do with that? And then this was kind of like year. A couple of years after he releases this album.

It's like the process of grief, and it's supposed to go through, like, you know, denial, anger, all the different things. Like, they even have, like, songs that are titled that. That are mostly just music numbers.

TJ Blackwell: 00:02:31

. Judah June lion are a early: 2010

TJ Blackwell: 00:02:44

Like, they.

TJ Blackwell: 00:02:45

They're one of those guys. They went to Belmont University. Judah and one of the others were studying music there together in. When it's in Nashville. So, you know, naturally.

Peter Beck: 00:02:56

Right. And part of their program is they have to produce stuff in this in the studio and some other stuff. So. Okay, that's cool. I just never heard of them.

I like bluegrass I mean, I've seen Steep Canyon Rangers multiple times, but, you know, some of this alt stuff. So I'm going, that's interesting. But who are they?

TJ Blackwell: 00:03:13

Yeah, that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:03:14

For their first album, hit, I think, number four on the. On Billboard's bluegrass charts.

Peter Beck: 00:03:19

Oh, wow.

TJ Blackwell: 00:03:19

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:20

Cool. Yeah, it's like a folk pop blend, which at first I was like, this is all. That sounds awful. And then when I first listened, I really didn't like it.

It wasn't until, like, I heard a couple that I was like, I think I actually do really enjoy this. They're. Yeah. I actually know somebody who lives in the same neighborhood as them, weirdly enough. Kind of cool. Yeah, they.

Originally they were going to. I forget who it was, but they were going to get their records with a Christian recording group.

But they realized some of the stuff about the CCM culture and world, about, like, how much limitations they were.

TJ Blackwell: 00:03:56

Are.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:56

And they were kind of like, we don't want to just produce music that's already out there, actually. So they. They did something different. And they're not, like, hugely famous.

I feel like in Tennessee, they're a lot more well known than outside of Tennessee.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:10

Yeah, they've had their moments like, you know, they were on Conan. They've been on tonight's show with James Corden. They've been on Jimmy Fallon, I think.

I think the coolest thing they've ever done is they opened for Incubus Love. Incubus Crazy.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:25

I don't know who that is.

Peter Beck: 00:04:27

What?

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:27

But, yeah, he's weird. And Jimmy Eat World. They voting for Jimmy Eat World. I know that was 21 pilots. I definitely want to find out.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:37

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:37

But they kind of fill the same space. That one made sense.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:40

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:41

But it's weird because I feel like historically going through their album because I followed them for a long time. Now they have songs that are like, going to Mars. And it's just kind of like fun. And it's like folk and pop. And it's like, we're going to go to Mars.

And I'm like, okay, cool. Vibing with us. And then they have one that's like. It's called okay. And it's talking about. He's like, all the stuff going on in his life is like.

But it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. And it gets to, like, the bridge. He's like, actually, it's effing not okay.

And he gets really angry and passionate and you're like, okay. So we went from, like, going to Mars woo with it, like the Next album we're into like, this.

I keep telling everybody it's okay, but it's definitely not. And I'm like, what? Who are you? Like, I keep asking the same thing. Really. I'm like, who are you?

Peter Beck: 00:05:23

Your next album is going to be But Hurt.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:28

You know, I would listen. I'd listen to But Hurt.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:30

Yeah, they are.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:32

Process of that, but, yeah, they're one.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:34

Of those groups that are, like, you know, they're going to write what they're thinking.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:39

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:39

I feel like they're just kind of doing what they want.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:41

Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:43

Which is fine. I prefer that than, like, the people who are just very clearly trying to do what they think is going to make the most money. That's a very date to me.

Just. Just. If you're an artist, I want to see what you want to put out in the world.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:54

Yeah.

Peter Beck: 00:05:55

Personally, there you go. Cool. I was just curious because I read the lyrics, then I went and watched the video and went, what are these guys doing?

They have bluegrass instruments, but they're electric. But they don't sing like bluegrass, you know, Are they grunge? Are they grunge grass? I mean, are they.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:13

That's.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:14

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:14

All of these are valid questions.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:16

All grass is what they should be. But an electric mandolin is awesome. I'd never seen one until, like, Judah and the lion got popular. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:24

I saw an electric violin with Skillet, but that was, like, forever ago, back when Skillet was less divisive. But the. I think what's interesting, too, is, like, I.

Until, like, this album came out, I didn't do, like, a lot of research in people's lives because I don't care about the lives of, like, the artist or actors that I like, because I typically find that the more I learn about them, the less I like them. So I'm like, I'd rather just not know. But this all made me curious.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:54

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:55

And then they invite you on podcast.

Peter Beck: 00:06:57

You're like, man, yeah, I'm excited to meet you. And you go, later. Nah, I really wasn't. But define interest to get you in trouble.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:06

Oh, man. But, yeah, so I, like, I did more research in their lives with this one.

So just because, like, until this came out, I was always like, I'm assuming they're Christian or Jewish because of the name, but it wasn't, like, as explicit. But I feel like naming a song Long Dark Night.

TJ Blackwell: 00:07:22

Yep.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:22

Gets pretty, like. Yeah, that's. That's just a Christian reference at this point. Like, hard to get around that.

Peter Beck: 00:07:28

He Picked it up in class since they went to Belmont and went. That's a cool image. And yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:37

So the episode I did with Dr. Beck, T.J. Ms. Which is part of the cool thing about doing this a little bit later too, is that TJ actually gets to still hang out with Dr. Beck a little bit.

You know, I did hang out with our podcast friends.

TJ Blackwell: 00:07:47

Yeah, yeah, he did.

Peter Beck: 00:07:49

He was working. He was making money from the man.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:52

What a loser. But, yeah, no, but we. We talked a lot about PTSD and some of, like, your history and the book that you have coming out in that.

And your book is titled Dark Night of the Soul subtitle. My Brain is bad.

Peter Beck: 00:08:12

That's not the subtitle. But yes, it's close.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:16

That would have been a very entertaining subtitle. But anyway, so because the title was similar, made me think of the song.

And then listening afterwards after having already asked you, like, hey, what if we. We talked about the song as a bonus? I'm like, man, this is actually, like, probably terrible for PTSD because I, like, lean into the pain.

And I'm like, maybe not. I'm not sure, actually.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:43

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:43

So what was your first reactions to it? I'm going to play a little bit of it, but I kind of want to just hear.

Peter Beck: 00:08:48

Well, yeah, I went into it thinking, they must be Christian. They must know John of the Cross, and it's somebody, you know, trying to encourage other people.

And then as I'm reading one, is this song encouraging or is this just song painfully honest? And maybe there's something in both.

I read some of the reviews on YouTube and a lot of the folks, their response was, I know exactly what he's talking about. You know, whether it's the lover who's left them or whatever.

But that angst, that pain, that kind of comes from this idea of I'm in the dark and I'm alone here. How do I get through it at the end, second read and going, it's kind of really dark song, isn't it? The escape is six feet down you go.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:39

Oh.

TJ Blackwell: 00:09:42

Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:44

I thought it was really interesting having. So I listened to the album sequentially, like, all the way through, because I love them.

And I always do that for artists because sometimes artists put songs in order for a reason. Drew the Lion's particularly good at doing that, actually.

So really, the songs are going through this whole stage of, like, when he was in denial, when he was really angry. Like, there are some really angry songs in this album. And it's funny, I did a podcast about the album as a whole on some joyful noises.

And I remember kind of comparing some of it to, like, Taylor Swift breakup songs. Because, like, Taylor Swift, it's always like, a little petty, but it's kind of fun. And you're like, yeah, yeah, screw my ex. Right?

And it's just very surface level. This one gets to the, like, here's the anger part. Here's when I felt petty, here's when I was just straight up depressed.

And this song comes near the end. So what's interesting is you still kind of see where the guy is definitely depressed, but he talks about, that's how I find the way out.

That's how I find light. It wasn't till I was defeated till I died to myself. And I'm like, this is just like Christianity without using the word Jesus verbatim.

Like, it was like you just did everything you could not to use specifically the word Jesus. Everything else is. This is just Christianity.

Peter Beck: 00:11:02

Yeah, it feels like.

And I'm assuming it's the case, especially as you just summarize the song, it feels like they've read the original poem all the way through and realize that long dark night is taking you somewhere better. And, you know, in his case, it's relational. You know, it's the, you know, woe is me angst ridden. You know, what do I do?

And the answer is kind of at the end, look forward to tomorrow. And, you know, the fact that it's so dark now, tomorrow is going to be all the brighter. So it is an interesting.

Especially now you put it in the context for us, the album. It's an interesting thing they've done.

TJ Blackwell: 00:11:40

Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:42

Well, I'm gonna play a little bit and then it's some final thoughts and hear how terrible you think this might be for PTSD or, like, good or, like, hey, we just shouldn't relate these two things at all or what? But first, I am going to play a little bit of the song because it just feels like we should play part of what we're talking about, I think.

Judah & the Lion: 00:12:01

Whoa, it's the long dark night of the soul where you find the light Whoa, it's six feet deep where you gotta go to come alive.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:23

Seems weird.

Judah & the Lion: 00:12:24

Finding strength in the weakness Tell the truth what follows is freedom to the hurt Then you'll find some healing.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:33

Yeah, I don't wanna play the whole song, but, yeah, it's. Strengthen the weakness. Light comes at the end of death. You're dying to yourself, I would think. I don't think it literally means dying. I Hope not.

TJ Blackwell: 00:12:45

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:46

Tj, what are some of your thoughts? I feel like I heard Dr. Beck, but I don't know if I've ever actually heard you talk about this. I don't think we've talked about this album together.

TJ Blackwell: 00:12:52

No, I don't. It's like the boom clap sound. I kind of got over it when I was like 15, 16.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:00

Answer.

TJ Blackwell: 00:13:01

But, you know, they're. They're fine. They're good.

Personally, I always saw it as more of like an ego death situation where, like, to get over this, I have to get over myself. And that's kind of how I saw it.

I didn't watch the video, which I still think digging a six foot hole for yourself could be, you know, symbolic of ego death. But that's just kind of the way that I took it.

TJ Blackwell: 00:13:27

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:13:28

And that's how I see the song. And it does kind of make me think because, like, Jude and the Line are so on their sleeve.

Like, is this the end of this downturn that he's been in since his divorce? Is the next Jude and the lion album gonna be super happy?

TJ Blackwell: 00:13:47

Who knows?

Joshua Noel: 00:13:48

Kind of hope so.

TJ Blackwell: 00:13:49

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:51

I do. Also, I want to put in context just for everybody before we move on, since not everyone's going to listen to my other episode or the whole album.

One of the other songs, when he's talking about, like, the process near the end, I don't remember which stage he was entering this, but he. He talks about his ex and he goes, no, like, I actually truly wish you the best. I want the best for you.

I think the song might actually be called best for you. And it's just so weird, like, hearing everything that happened, seeing how it affected him and how it made him feel.

Even in this song, you're like, okay, that's actually huge that he's able to say that. And that's where I think that when he talks about light after death, he probably doesn't mean dying would be better, but rather that he's growing.

Much like Dr. Beck talks about with the poem. It's more that this dark night is bringing him somewhere better.

And that better place is even saying, I wish the best for you to someone who made him feel this way. And I still feel a little bit challenged by that because I'm not sure how I would handle it. The same situation.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:50

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:51

Anything to add before we move on to, like, how this might relate to the kind of themes and messages in Dr. Beck's book? Because I am curious.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:59

No. All right.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:00

So Dr. Beck, your. Your book is more About PTSD dealing with more of like an ongoing trauma.

What he's talking about seems like it's more like a one time event that he grew past. You mentioned in the episode, proper PTSD isn't something that you grow past. It's something you have to learn to live with.

How does like, how does this song make you feel? Or do you like, hey, these shoes shouldn't be compared side by side and Josh was dumb for making us do this or where are you at with this?

Peter Beck: 00:15:28

Is that an all of the above kind of answer?

TJ Blackwell: 00:15:30

Yeah. Yes.

Peter Beck: 00:15:33

No, I mean with the song, like any song or art, you know, you got to realize a lot of it's done in metaphor. Right. And so you can't take some of it. I don't say at face value, but yeah, he's not encouraging you go kill yourself. Life's going to be better.

Yeah, but you know, for the person who's struggling with mental health issues, ptsd, depression, you know, it's not always as easy as burying it. But I don't think he's saying the bearing. It's easy.

I think what he's saying is you've got to deal with it and at some point realize, okay, in the case of his divorce, I've dealt with it as much as I can, it's time to move forward.

You know, ptsd, you don't necessarily bury it and move on because you know, a loud car backfiring in the street may trigger somebody or you know, they hear a song or they. I was talking somebody who lost mother and mother in law like four or five weeks apart this summer.

TJ Blackwell: 00:16:26

Oh man.

Peter Beck: 00:16:27

One's birthday is going, would have been this weekend. There's mothers, I mean, they're going to get over it. But periodically, something in life is going to rip the band aid off.

And so I think as long as you approach art that way, you go, okay, I see what he's saying.

And part of, you know, one of the treatment methods that they use for PTSD is what's called prolonged exposure therapy, which is really bad because you think pet and there's nothing good about it. You know, it's literally taking you back to it, walking through it mentally. I mean, they literally call part of it your imaginal.

You identify what this thing was and then you close your eyes and you discuss it with your therapist in detail, what you felt. And you know, my therapist, you know, be blind, bluntly honest with you. You know, she interrupted me one time, said, what just happened there?

And I went, what? Of course she's watching me, eyes are closed. But apparently I started acting out the scene. You know, my.

My eyes, you know, I bucked up a little bit and, you know, braced. And so you do, in a sense, like the song says, have to kind of go through it and go back to it.

Now maybe at some point some people will be able to bury their trauma. I mean, I'm not buried in the bad sense, like, oh, it's back there and it's going to come back at the dead one day.

But bury it in the sense that you've dealt with it in as best you can, put it behind you and move on. I mean, in the end, you know, my military stuff was a long, long, long time ago. You know, comparatively, I can't keep reliving the 80s and 90s.

You know, I can't escape the effects of it. But, you know, what can I learn from this? Which is what the song is trying to encourage the people to do and keep moving forward.

You know, still in the dark night. But I'm not back there, you know, mourning or hovering over the issue. I've accepted that this is a difficult part of life, but life keeps going.

Or, you know, like we talked about in the main episode, if you can do that. That's why a lot of people choose the alternative. Right?

They do choose the true six foot hole, or they choose alcohol or drugs because they can't move, if you will, past that. Maybe not even the trauma, but the. The discovery that, yeah, there was a trauma.

You know, if you keep reliving that, he could believe in that house by himself for the rest of his life and be miserable. He's realized she's gone. Ticked him off. At some point he's going to go, okay, am I going to remarry one day? Am I going to move forward?

And I think in that sense, that kind of song is helpful that way. I don't think, you know, he's not encouraging people to go off themselves, you know. Yeah, somebody may try to blame you.

I saw today on the Internet, some parents are suing chat GPT because their 16 year old before he killed himself, ask chat GPT how should I kill myself?

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:25

Yeah, that's.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:26

That whole thing is crazy, man.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:29

That's crazy.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:30

I think it's easy to move past the metaphor of burying something because, you know, I'm a good old southern boy. I was raised in South Carolina. I've buried a pet or two. It's very intimate. It's not just dig a hole, throw it in there.

You Know, like you're saying goodbye and I mean like literally picking it up and burying it, like doing the work. It's a little different than like a real funeral.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:59

Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:00

Him in Tennessee probably done something similar.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:03

Yeah. Yep.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:04

So that's, that's what I'm thinking is that it's not as simple as saying, you know, bury the issue.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:12

Yeah, yeah.

Peter Beck: 00:20:13

Well, I mean, in truth, whether it's the divorce that, you know, the songwriters dealing with or loss of a pet loved one. We buried two pets last year. I still occasionally take my two current dogs and we'll call them by the name of one of the ones from last year.

Even though the one who died last year is German shepherd. These two are labs.

I still sometimes catch up, you know, which then becomes all the more frustrating because I, you know, yet again going, I'm losing my mind. But you know, you're going to walk into a room and that's where the dog sat.

Or first time you go to your grandparents home and one of the grandparents is now gone. You want to, I don't say lose your mind, but at some point you're liable to go catch yourself. Hopefully before you say out loud, but where's grandpa?

Because it just still feels like they ought to be there. You know, musically speaking, it really. Left turn here. The Gaither Vocal Band, you know, gospel.

They've got a song, I forget the title of it, where it talks about him going through life, seeing something as he's driving to work or church or whatever and he wants to pick up a cell phone and call his wife and tell her, hey, you won't believe what I just saw, because it was something that was important to her. And then it dawns on him, she's not there anymore.

TJ Blackwell: 00:21:32

Yeah.

Peter Beck: 00:21:32

And so it's not that we have ghosts, per se, or voices in our heads. Those memories, good, bad or otherwise linger, but they go with you through the dark night.

And it's not going to be ultimately until the metaphor actually does prove true, that when you pass through the grave, then you'll truly leave it behind. So that's kind of the double edged sword of this song. It's. I'm dealing with grief of my divorce.

I'm just metaphorically saying you got to bury it and move on. But reality is, until this life is over, it's always going to be there somewhere in the background. Right. So that's why mental health is so important.

TJ Blackwell: 00:22:09

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:22:10

And I, I, you know, I feel like that kind of experience is what makes life worth living, is that you Know, those memories, those pieces of others are now pieces of you. You're a mosaic of all the people you've ever met, you know, that kind of thing.

And I really hate that in, like, these specific examples that it is probably what WandaVision will be, you know, remembered the most for is, well, what is grief but love persisting.

TJ Blackwell: 00:22:41

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:43

Good line, though.

TJ Blackwell: 00:22:44

Straight line. Yeah, I. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:47

I don't know. For me, it is weird have this album came out.

The time that it did was, like, right before there was a shooting at my house that I mentioned in the regular episode. Right. Because it was funny when I first listened to it. I say funny. I'm thinking back to my car accident.

e way or another. So in like,: 2016

My body's not the same as it used to be. And I think what it did to me, that's all I thought about. Like, it was defining who I was, and I was able to put that part behind me.

I kind of died to that version of myself that was only defined by the accident. I feel like I'm a different person than I was then.

And yet sometimes when I'm at a three way stop that looks kind of similar to what happened, I get a little shaken up, you know, it's not like it didn't happen to me. It's just. It doesn't define me anymore. So I feel like that's a lot of what he's talking about.

And then even, like, what Dr. Beck was talking about, like, with, like, loved ones.

I always sent pictures to my grandmother of, like, my garden and stuff because, like, I always, like, do stuff to help with the pollinators and butterflies and bees. And I always would send my granny pictures. And I still, like, I have a little bumblebee right now.

This was almost my God moment today, TJ that was injured on my porch, and I'm trying to nurse it back to health. And I keep wanting to just send pictures to my granny. Like, every now and then I'm like, oh, look, it crawled to the other side of the thing.

Granny's gonna love.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:11

Oh.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:13

And, you know, it just is what it is.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:16

Yeah, we almost were in. Yeah, we were almost in a situation like that together. Josh was driving to school one day.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:24

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:26

I almost killed us once. Yeah. Forgot about that Once. Just once. Just once that we're aware of.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:33

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:33

Once we knew About.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:34

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:35

All right. This has gone on a little bit longer than most of our patron segments. I might put this like a free on the feed, like, as a bonus.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:41

We'll see.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:43

Do we have anything else we want to add before we. We say ta da farewell?

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:52

If you aren't a fan of, like, the Boom Clap, like, folksy, like alt pop, but you are a fan of, like, John Bellion, Casey Musgraves, there is still something for you there with Jude and the Lion. They have done songs with those two and, you know, give it a check. Give it a once over.

Most of their albums do sound pretty different from one another. Like, you can tell it's still Jude and the lion, but they switch it up quite a bit.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:19

The Sweet Tennessee album's great.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:21

Sweet Tennessee. That is their first album. That's the. That's the one that's really bluegrass.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:25

Yeah, check.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:27

Yeah, that one. That was the best one in my opinion. But there's something there. I'm a big fan of John Bellion.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:36

Yeah, he's good. He's good.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:38

Also, Dr. Beck, again, what's the name of your book and where people can.

Peter Beck: 00:25:41

Find is Dark Night of the Soul in some subtitle about losing your mind? Yeah, I have a hard time, too. It's okay, Josh.

I sometimes have a hard time remembering what is the full subtitle, but it's basically a journey through despair, you know, a journey of faith through that. It'll be available on Amazon hopefully very, very soon.

You keep an eye out for it, go back and, you know, search for that title, Dark Night of the Soul. You may get John of the Cross's poetry or you'll find my book, or just, you know, go and look for my name. Peter Beck.

I've participated in a number of books, but the only two have my name on them. This one when it comes out, and then one I've written on prayer, the voice of faith. You know, why do we pray? And what does that bring about?

So I encourage you to buy it. It'll be out definitely by Veterans Day at the absolute latest. That was my deadline for the publisher. Buy it for a veteran.

Buy it for somebody who's struggling. I'm not looking to get rich. I'm not looking to get famous. As I said in the longer podcast, I'm doing all this just to help other people.

And so if we get into the hands of somebody who's hurting, maybe some good will come from it.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:46

My general rule of thumb, if you remember the title and the author's name. You don't really need the subtitle to look it up. Yeah, you just use those two things. It's usually shorter, less typing.

I'm lazy, as my professor knows. Hey, guys, thank you so much for supporting us on Patreon or wherever you're listening to this. You're supporting by listening, and we appreciate it.

So you guys rock. Dr. Mike, thank you again for your time. You're amazing. TJ, thank you again for your.

TJ Blackwell: 00:27:13

Your time.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:13

You're amazing for doing your own show.

TJ Blackwell: 00:27:16

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:17

All right, guys, we hope you tune in again whenever the next time we do a podcast is. Till then. I feel like we have a sign off, but it's really just something about Frank Chan. So till then.

TJ Blackwell: 00:27:27

See you.